God damnit, Tom... I can't breathe.
Hey look guys I've had time to calm down and I'm sorry. I've been venting online from a real life experience.
See, I have have a group of friends who go to each others houses for video games. Smash is common one and whoever's house it is gets to make the rules.
So a while back it was my turn to host video games and we were play Smash by my rules. Well normally these two guys get really into Smash... But this time, they weren't. One guy was just fucking around the whole time and the other guy looked bored.
They didn't take it seriously at all. That sort of hurt my feelings to be honest.
Look I know that there is a competitive Smash that is 100% competitive. But it doesn't go 100% to 0% the minute you add an item or two. I know its not 100%, but its not 0% either and shouldnt be treated that way.
Items are RNG, no competitive smasher will take them seriously whether they enjoy it or not. If they lost, it was because of an item; if they won, it was because of an item. This is just the mindset pretty much... most people I know have including myself. I can enjoy items but will never ever take them seriously or get tense in a match with them on. I know the match didn't mean anything because it had outside influence that I didn't have much control over.
(06-24-2015, 05:01 PM)Shade Wrote: [ -> ]Speaking of ridiculous items that would make me get ridiculously frustrated if I attempted to take item smash seriously, screw Gust Bellows. That thing blows.
THIS FUCKING PUN
JUST WOOSHED RIGHT OVER ME SOMEHOW.
It depends on the item... but there's definitely a good number of items that you can play pretty fairly and handle skillfully. It's just that item play is about adapting and playing defensively instead of offensively. That doesn't make it less skill-based.
That you "didnt have much control over"? Just because you don't have 100% control over something doesn't mean you have no control over it at all.
Think about golf or many outdoor sports. There will being random environmental conditions that will alter the playing field. The wind may pick up and change direction. Etc. The player has to adapt to those changes.
Like Kriven said, there's a good number of items you can't just use without effort. There's still player influence involved. In fact I'd say a good number of items require you know what you're doing with them.
In short: If I won, it was because of an item... that I used skillfully.
Eh, you can say that about some items, but others don't work well with your analogy. It would be more like you swing the club, and then a bullet bill auto-tracks it to the green inches from the hole because you teed off second.
Unless you were playing as Tiger, his summons a Landmaster and he has to hope he has enough rocket fuel to float to the green.
Ohhhhh boy, the "you guys just can't adapt to items!!!!!" argument, where do I start... I guess I won't
(06-24-2015, 11:38 PM)Koopaul Wrote: [ -> ]Think about golf or many outdoor sports. There will being random environmental conditions that will alter the playing field. The wind may pick up and change direction. Etc. The player has to adapt to those changes.
Why deal with shitty weather when you have the option not to, yadda yadda
(06-24-2015, 11:38 PM)Koopaul Wrote: [ -> ]In short: If I won, it was because of an item... that I used skillfully.
My... sides...
Conclusion
(06-24-2015, 11:38 PM)Koopaul Wrote: [ -> ]Think about golf or many outdoor sports. There will being random environmental conditions that will alter the playing field. The wind may pick up and change direction. Etc. The player has to adapt to those changes.
A good golfer will say, "Mmmkay wind's pretty strong in this direction... I should hit the ball a little that way and it'll land right where I want it." Or, "It's raining, so the grass is pretty wet, I'd better put some extra oomph in my putt."
A good Smasher can't say, "Mmmkay, a capsule
might spawn here, and it
might be explosive and I
might, if I throw an attack, get hurt by it... so
maybe I shouldn't attack?"
Yeah that sounds fun.
A good golf shot is less luck than it is skill. Why should Smash be any different?
Do you think I play with Stars on or anything like that? You're acting like I think every item can be used skillfully. Obviously many can't.
(06-25-2015, 12:14 AM)TomGuycott Wrote: [ -> ]Eh, you can say that about some items, but others don't work well with your analogy.
Exactly. Many items are completely random, overpowered, or both. That's why I think there needs to be balanced. Things should be fixed.
I'm a bit late for this conversation, but I just thought I would point out one of the big reasons we only have one final smash per character. (And I apologize if this was already mentioned but I didn't read every line of text over the last four pages of this topic.)
One thing I think everyone can agree on is the fact that Final Smashes are incredibly overpowered and can completely change the flow of battle in favor of whoever snags it. To make up for this, each Final Smash has a specific shortcomings (or blind spots) that other players can attempt utilize to avoid being completely devastated. And one of the big important aspects of this functionality is knowing what kind of attack is forthcoming. When you see a specific character start glowing with FS power, you KNOW precisely what their attack is and can begin your scramble to avoid it (or throw your other opponents into the fire).
For examples, with characters like C. Falcon, Meta Knight, and Greninja, you KNOW that those characters need a target directly in front of them to pull off their attacks, so you're either going to stay far away from them or try to fake them into wasting it with slick dodging. For Mario or Samus, you KNOW that the safest way to avoid their attacks is either to get yourself above them or behind them when they fire. For transforming characters, you KNOW that you want to keep as much distance from them as possible in order to force them to waste their time limit hunting you down. Et cetera et cetera.
Now imagine a situation where each character has three or four different Finals they can pull off. Maybe Mario has his fireball cone, an AOE attack, and some sort of transformation into Giant Mario or something. Suddenly that knowledge that could give you a chance at escaping his attack is a moot point, because you don't KNOW which of the three he's going to choose, meaning he can take you completely by surprise, and not only that, but because he is not forced to use a single specific attack, he can change his mind dependent on what the other players are doing to give him the biggest unfair advantage. Try to get above or behind of him to avoid his conical firestorm? Well he'll just use that AOE attack instead to get you regardless.
Having multiple choices basically means the opponents never stand a chance, and it just becomes a super aggravating mechanic instead of a silly fun chaotic one. Half the fun of having Final Smashes is being on the other side of one and seeing if you have the skills it takes to survive it. It is not merely an instant win for whoever grabs it; if it was, NOBODY would enjoy the feature. And that is why it's important for you to know what it is you're dealing with.
Perhaps your right. Adding three Final Smashes might make things too difficult for the player on defense. Of course you could take measures to make sure these Final Smashes are easy to avoid or prevent, but maybe there are other things that can be done. See I'm all about flexibility. Remember that word I used earlier. As they are right now is completely out of balance, and making them more flexible is the key.
Take Mario Finale for example. It is by far the worst Final Smash in the game. Why? Almost anyone can avoid it 99.9999% of the time. It's because there's little Mario can do about it. You can see it coming from a mile away, so you can't surprise anyone with it, and it moves slow enough to leap over or duck under with plenty of time to spare.
However, Final Smashes like Yoshi's or Wario's or Pikachu's give the player control over that power. They have the ability to move about and decide what to do. It's flexible. It can adapt to a number of circumstances.
So maybe that's the solution after all. Not giving three final Smashes but giving more control over just the one. Perhaps if Mario could aim the Finale?
Items are fun when you are dicking around, and that is totally okay. However I understand why playing without items is fairer for those who play the games seriously.
In that golf analogy, that would be like, playing golf with your friend and then, randomly, a guided golf ball spawns in front of him, netting him a hole in one shot. This doesn't sound fair, right?
"But I have the same chances of getting items, it shouldn't be that bad"
Yes - you could get a fireball spell for your golf ball next round to disrupt your opponent, but then, think about it. All the calculation, all the club picking, all the terrain analysis and swing power is moot. You aren't playing golf anymore, you are just fucking around with items.
Golf might be a complex game, but there are predictable points - this is why there are pro golfers. They know how to analyze all that 'seemingly random data' to suit their playing. Wind is not entirely random, neither is weather. They take time to change - it's not like a bob-omb that spawns in front of you.
Also nerfing them would be pointless. The fun of items is to fuck with your friends, launching them frantically. It's meant to be a dickish thing in conception - imagine a 'balanced' hammer, or a 'nerfed' bomb. The whole suprise factor and impact is gone. They are party elements by nature and it's kinda pointless to use them in a regulated scene that is professional smash bros.
(06-25-2015, 02:45 AM)Koopaul Wrote: [ -> ]Take Mario Finale for example. It is by far the worst Final Smash in the game. Why? Almost anyone can avoid it 99.9999% of the time. It's because there's little Mario can do about it. You can see it coming from a mile away, so you can't surprise anyone with it, and it moves slow enough to leap over or duck under with plenty of time to spare.
However, Final Smashes like Yoshi's or Wario's or Pikachu's give the player control over that power. They have the ability to move about and decide what to do. It's flexible. It can adapt to a number of circumstances.
...I've never gotten a K.O. with Mega Lucario, while I have at least once with everyone else's Final Smash.
Anyway, about the items which everyone's on the topic of, my real-life friend keeps telling me that "I only win against him because I use 'em", but for all the rounds we played with them disabled, I've got at
least a 9:2 win rate against him. :V
(06-25-2015, 02:02 AM)Koopaul Wrote: [ -> ]Do you think I play with Stars on or anything like that? You're acting like I think every item can be used skillfully. Obviously many can't.
Sure but you missed the entire point of that video. RNG spawning gives people random advantages that no one could possibly plan for, it's just bullshit to take seriously; and thus, that's no one takes items seriously.
Your golf analogy was bad, all those things are predictable and don't happen out of thin air, they can be planned around.
Why are you all assuming that items are all-or-nothing when I specifically said that some items are totally usable and fair? Obviously things like the Gust Bellows and the Drill aren't, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with the Star Rod or the Fire Flower.
Wasn't there a pretty satisfying Item-Competitive post linked to here the last time this topic was had? I seem to remember just about everybody on both sides of this debate feeling good about that, so why has everybody migrated right back to their polar extremes?
Also, Iceman, I didn't say you were unable to adapt. I said that item play requires a different skillset. I never made a comment about *your* skillset, or Sportoise, or anybody else.