I'm not one to argue, but I have one more thing to say.
(06-15-2013, 10:49 PM)Koopaul Wrote: [ -> ]Fanbase is only a fraction of the love. How much the company loves the series has greater power over us nerds. Also you didn't factor the love of the common folk. In the eyes of the commoner, people know no more about Mother than F-Zero. Average Joe would have the same idea of what they are. But series like Mario they could identify immediately.
You know we're talking about smash bros, right?
Look at Megaman. I'm pretty sure his appearance is 99% because of fans.
Nintendo knows people love Mother (Virtual Console+Miiverse) and I'm pretty sure they'd do what they can to please the fans. Honestly, most of my non-videogame playing friends know about Mother and not F-Zero. Not that it matters...
It is ultimately what Sakurai thinks is the best representation.
(06-15-2013, 10:49 PM)Koopaul Wrote: [ -> ]Actually it does. Wouldn't you call bullshit id Donkey Kong had four characters and Mario only had two?
What I meant was, it is better to have one character than none.
SSB is really weird about which characters it uses and why, so I'm not going to argue that Lucas will be out or someone from F-Zero will be in, but if we're talking fanbases, F-Zero has nothing on Mother, the fanbase that fan-translated a fairly dialogue-heavy JRPG, mounted a HUGE letter-writing campaign, put out countless fanworks including fangames, podcasts, whole albums of music, etc...
Mother might not be a household name like Mario or Zelda but I can assure you the fans, American, Japanese, or otherwise are far from few in number - Nintendo should know from the reaction to Earthbound on the VC - and they always have the desire and capacity to make themselves heard.
I would like another Mother character. Though Ness and Lucas aren't clones, there's plenty of fun gameplay elements that characters like the Masked Man, Duster, Jeff, or even Kumatora, Paula, or Poo (who'd play pretty differently from Ness and Lucas IMO) could bring in. And hey, what can I say - I'm a fan.
....Kriven, Fox and Kirby were on the website the whole time.
I still think they could make distinctions between Ness and Lucas and still be completely fine. You could make one have more connections with the other characters which exists in their special moves already and make the one that isn't that to have b moves of which they actually know in their own game. (The support moves etc.) It wouldn't hurt to give them different Final Smashes either...
(06-15-2013, 11:19 PM)Trollerskates Wrote: [ -> ]....Kriven, Fox and Kirby were on the website the whole time.
Guess I must have missed them
I still kind of want Popeye to show up as a blindside inclusion. Completely serious about this, considering his history and whatnot.
Either way, I'm going to try and pay as little attention as I can to this game. I kept my eyes glued to Brawl and got disappointed with its overall outcome; this time I completely forgot about E3 and then here they announced Megaman as a playable character. Though, watch as Capcom decides to make an attempt to out-dick Microsoft and try to pull Megaman from the roster while the game's almost at release time.
(06-15-2013, 10:49 PM)Koopaul Wrote: [ -> ]Fanbase is only a fraction of the love. How much the company loves the series has greater power over us nerds. Also you didn't factor the love of the common folk. In the eyes of the commoner, people know no more about Mother than F-Zero. Average Joe would have the same idea of what they are. But series like Mario they could identify immediately.
Even if the fanbase is a fraction, it's a pretty damn big one. Ether way that's kind of an irrelevant argument you are making regarding that subject.
Plus, take a look at how many people played the original Smash Bros. Did they know who Captain Falcon and Ness were when they unlocked them? no, they had to find out who they were themselves. Now we're about three games from that now and there's alot of fans for both series. Regardless of how many fans ether games had, I'm pretty sure that most commoners know them now. So again, this doesn't matter.
(06-15-2013, 10:26 PM)Ploaj Wrote: [ -> ]It doesn't really matter how many reps, but if a series if represented in the first place imo.
Actually it does. Wouldn't you call bullshit if Donkey Kong had four characters and Mario only had two?
Technically, if you consider that if it wasn't for the Mario series to help push DK's popularity, they're almost the same series. But yet they're not.
So in a certain point of view, I wouldn't care. It's silly when I say this but the original Donkey Kong is what crafted the Mario series and the modern DK series. So both series represent one game in different ways.
That being said I think it's a little unfair to compare Mario and DK to Earthbound and F-Zero no? Since neither Earthbound or F-Zero have much of a relation aside from the fact they're both owned by Nintendo.
I'm sorry. But you can't blame me for trying to rationalize why someone thinks Mother is a class above F-Zero. The first idea that pops in your head is that they like the series better. So I'm sorry I did that.
But really we're having the wrong debate here. We are debating "Why a Character Should Get In" instead of "Why a Character Will Get In" which all comes down to Sakurai.
I could debate with you guys forever that F-Zero is equal footing with Mother and only should have one character. But Sakurai is the one who decides that.
There have already been several points that have been made against your argument here though. Like how Earthbound is an RPG and F-Zero is a Racing game, and how Earthbound still has more notable characters than F-Zero. And so on.
What does interest me though is the whole RPG vs. Racing game thing translating into a fighting game though, so I think I might go a little farther in this section under the quote I'm using to make this post.
Lastly I do agree that it does come down to Sakurai in the end on who gets in, lets just remember that he has done a decent job of listening to the fans in the past. Which is another reason why you can't really rule out the fans entirely. Sure he doesn't always acknowledge them but to be real with you, it's not like he wasn't aware of them. This is the reason why Wolf got in and it's probably the same reason why Lucario got in.
Far as the whole RPG and Racing thing though, I kind of want to say how easy it is for an RPG to translate into a fighting game better than a racing game.
I'm pretty sure everyone knows that in an RPG you learn some special attacks right? Like Thunder in Pokemon or PK Flash in Earthbound. Riddle me this, since RPG's already have a huge list of moves for one character then how easy do you think it is for someone to make those characters into a fighting game? Pretty easily considering that factor.
And it's already been stated that it's hard to translate a racing character into a fighting game since you'd have to make up moves for them. Captain Falcon was probably the only one that wasn't as difficult for Sakurai to put into Smash Bros. Take a look at this video for a minute:
Those are really the only two moves worth noting. The rest of his moves were made up if you recall. Imagine how hard it would be for Sakurai to make a move set for another F-Zero Character.
I know this argument has been really trivial on both sides but I wanted to put my two cents of logic in this since there were a few things that I thought I'd chime in on.
I don't know anything about the F-Zero anime, but if someone else in that had an equivalent to the Falcon Punch I'm sure they could be included with a decent moveset.
Ploaj, Mega Man's appearence in SSB4 is because Sakurai is a Mega Man fanboy.
No, really. I'll try to find the article. Also, the only reason Mega Man probably wasn't in Brawl was because Sakurai never asked/thought of asking Capcom, despite Sakurai's admiration and respect for the Blue Bomber.
One thing I always envisioned if Black Bull ever became a character (There's more F-Zero characters I'd probably put before him, though) is a charging attack with his horns where he catches his opponent on them and then jerks them around before throwing them off, kind of like Freeza did in DBZ. Really the only limit to making a moveset is your own imagination.
I'm pretty sure Samurai Goroth would be in before Black Bull too. These 3 characters are probably the only 3 relevant ones in F-Zero. Racing games don't tend to focus on characters, you know.
(06-16-2013, 10:01 AM)Trollerskates Wrote: [ -> ]I don't know anything about the F-Zero anime, but if someone else in that had an equivalent to the Falcon Punch I'm sure they could be included with a decent moveset.
Aside from the fact Falcon Punch was invented in Smash Bros.
If F-Zero got another rep it's most likely going to be Samurai Goroh. I'm not saying that because he's the only other character in the series that could easily be represented, but I'm saying this because he probably has an easier chance of getting a move set made than most of the other characters.
No the whole "its easier for them to be a fighter" argument is irrelevant. Look at Villager, look at Mr. Game & Watch. They weren't chosen because they had an easy moveset to make.
This reminds me of a long time ago when someone on this forums thought Biff Atlas from Luigi's Mansion would make a good fighter because he looks like he'd be good at fighting. I said it's not about who'd make a good fighter, it's about who's an important character. So F-Zero being a racing game doesn't mean shit. You could make Excitebiker a character if you really wanted to.
(06-16-2013, 01:22 PM)Koopaul Wrote: [ -> ]You could make Excitebiker a character if you really wanted to.
Actually, they couldn't. Sakurai couldn't figure out how to make him work while riding his bike.
Quote:No the whole "its easier for them to be a fighter" argument is irrelevant. Look at Villager, look at Mr. Game & Watch.
Villager in-game:
-collects items
-can fish
-can catch bugs
-can shoot things
-can plant
-can chop stuff
-can move stuff
-can do other things that I don't know because I never played AC
Game & Watch in-game:
-can collect oil
-can cook sausages
-can use hammers
-can blow balls upwards
-can dive
-can raise flags
-can move animals
Captain Falcon and the other F-Zero characters in-game:
-can drive a car