Overleveling vs Underleveling

[Koh]

Challenge is determined by how much of a threat something is to you, by how difficult it is to defeat. How well a boss is capable of defeating you is intrinsically a part of that. And if you're HP is decently higher than its supposed to be, if you're defense is decently higher than its supposed to be, if your offense is decently higher than its supposed to be, then the fight is no longer balanced. Numerically speaking, it is going to be harder for the boss to consistently pose as much of a threat to you. If a boss is incapable of doing anything to be a threat to your continued existence then that means that there is no difficulty and the battle system is exactly as i described.

Most boss-battles do not last terribly long. That you're so concerned about the time being consumed by using a healing item or doing an action that is not directly offensive shows nothing but a misguided thought process.

You can't use repetition as an argument, because both sides have this issue.

you're assuming a lot, here. not only that healing would be required every other turn but that every turn would play about the same, in sequence. A well designed game would have variance and would actually give you a reason to use a number of different abilities depending on circumstance.

even if we operate under that assumption, if we remove the healing phase, then that removes an extra variable. meaning the fight is just:

Special Skills/Physical Attacks -> Boss Attacks -> Special Skills/Physical Attacks -> Boss Attacks, rinse and repeat.

I'm not sure what definition you're using for repetition, but that is kind of By Definition more repetitive.

Kindom Hearts,

is not a good game lol

All I'm saying is, in most RPGs, being underleveled means 3 basics things most of the time:

1. You do less damage, thus the fight carries on.
2. You have access to less abilities, so again "variance" isn't an argument here.
3. You have to heal way more often. This means, even if you don't have to heal every phase, you'd still have to do it moreso than you would if you prepared beforehand. So naturally, you'd just be using more time to watch the same healing animations, buffing animations, etc. over and over in the same fight, rather than taking care of most of the grinding at various points so you can get the full story in one fell swoop~

Oh and Kingdom Hearts IS a good game series. The Disney meets RPG mashup is a bit weird, I'll admit, but the plots and combat systems are very engaging.

[SKELTON S. SKELETON]

yo if an rpg is designed well, you should level on a pretty steady path with the flow of the game, and "underlevelled" should only ever be A Thing if you skip major sections of the game, likewise overlevelling should only be seen as a means to alleviate the difficulty for less skilled players, by margin of making them more powerful + also making them spend more time with the mechanics

[Koh]

yo if an rpg is designed well, you should level on a pretty steady path with the flow of the game, and "underlevelled" should only ever be A Thing if you skip major sections of the game, likewise overlevelling should only be seen as a means to alleviate the difficulty for less skilled players, by margin of making them more powerful + also making them spend more time with the mechanics

Like my game! You aren't forced to grind; you can go through in one fell swoop and still succeed. Even on Hard. However, that depends on your skill. If you are having trouble with a boss or the next area, you have the option of grinding by going back and forth. Every point of Strength is useful for damage output, so even +1 Strength could help out a lot. Thus, if people feel the need to grind, because they are having trouble with a certain part, they can, but aren't forced to.

[Kriven]

All I'm saying is, in most RPGs, being underleveled means 3 basics things most of the time:

1. You do less damage, thus the fight carries on.
2. You have access to less abilities, so again "variance" isn't an argument here.
3. You have to heal way more often. This means, even if you don't have to heal every phase, you'd still have to do it moreso than you would if you prepared beforehand. So naturally, you'd just be using more time to watch the same healing animations, buffing animations, etc. over and over in the same fight, rather than taking care of most of the grinding at various points so you can get the full story in one fell swoop~

Oh and Kingdom Hearts IS a good game series. The Disney meets RPG mashup is a bit weird, I'll admit, but the plots and combat systems are very engaging.

What is your fetish with fast? What's wrong with taking the time to do something? Maybe some people like doing things slow? Ever read The Tortoise and the Hare?

Really, I don't even understand your argument. Your opening post and, I assume, subsequent arguments aren't based in a reality where the designers intend for you to be over or under leveled, or design games where these are forced aspects of gameplay. Your entire position is: "You play the game wrong lolstupid!"

[Koh]

What is your fetish with fast? What's wrong with taking the time to do something? Maybe some people like doing things slow? Ever read The Tortoise and the Hare?

Really, I don't even understand your argument. Your opening post and, I assume, subsequent arguments aren't based in a reality where the designers intend for you to be over or under leveled, or design games where these are forced aspects of gameplay. Your entire position is: "You play the game wrong lolstupid!"

It's not just about finishing battles in the least amount of time possible. It's also minimizing seeing the same stuff over and over again, as mentioned above. We all know how the Cure spell looks after the first few times we see it, and if you're underleveled, you're going to have to watch that again and again, waiting for it to finish. In addition, when battles take years, it's easy to lose interest in them, because they've been going on for so long, and you've been maintaining the same strategy for the past 10 minutes. It just gets old pretty fast. When it's an Action RPG like Secret of Mana for example, you're kept active, so it doesn't get stale as fast, but you'd still probably be running around in circles, hitting 10's instead of 25's, not taking any damage because you already mastered the strategy, and are just waiting for him to die. Do you understand now ? Overgrinding (or normal amount of grinding) helps minimize repetition WITHIN THE SAME FIGHT.

[PrettyNier]

It's also minimizing seeing the same stuff over and over again, as mentioned above

in which case
as i pointed out
your argument fails completely

[Mutsukki]

We all know how the Cure spell looks after the first few times we see it, and if you're underleveled, you're going to have to watch that again and again, waiting for it to finish. In addition, when battles take years, it's easy to lose interest in them, because they've been going on for so long, and you've been maintaining the same strategy for the past 10 minutes. It just gets old pretty fast. When it's an Action RPG like Secret of Mana for example, you're kept active, so it doesn't get stale as fast, but you'd still probably be running around in circles, hitting 10's instead of 25's, not taking any damage because you already mastered the strategy, and are just waiting for him to die. Do you understand now ? Overgrinding (or normal amount of grinding) helps minimize repetition WITHIN THE SAME FIGHT.

Wait what, so you want a game that lacks in the strategy department and just ubers you so you can pretty much vaporize everything in your path with one move, is that it?

Most RPGs, as long you don't run from every single fight, but just from weaker/meaningless ones, you probably won't need to grind a lot, you just have to know what to do, which is why underleveling DO add to the challenge, it takes planning and knowledge of the mechanics

[Koh]

We all know how the Cure spell looks after the first few times we see it, and if you're underleveled, you're going to have to watch that again and again, waiting for it to finish. In addition, when battles take years, it's easy to lose interest in them, because they've been going on for so long, and you've been maintaining the same strategy for the past 10 minutes. It just gets old pretty fast. When it's an Action RPG like Secret of Mana for example, you're kept active, so it doesn't get stale as fast, but you'd still probably be running around in circles, hitting 10's instead of 25's, not taking any damage because you already mastered the strategy, and are just waiting for him to die. Do you understand now ? Overgrinding (or normal amount of grinding) helps minimize repetition WITHIN THE SAME FIGHT.

Wait what, so you want a game that lacks in the strategy department and just ubers you so you can pretty much vaporize everything in your path with one move, is that it?

Most RPGs, as long you don't run from every single fight, but just from weaker/meaningless ones, you probably won't need to grind a lot, you just have to know what to do, which is why underleveling DO add to the challenge, it takes planning and knowledge of the mechanics

There can be a strategies included that don't include Over or Under Level-grinding, like Final Fantasy Tactics, where the enemies are based on Ramza's level. Haste, Protect, and you're good to go and disperse your party across the battlefield a bit. However, with something realtime like Secret of Mana, all it takes is figuring out the boss' attack pattern, and then you can beat bosses without taking a single hit, so again, you have no need to be underleveled for stuff like this, if there are tactics already incorporated. All you're doing at that point is prolonging the battle unnecessarily.

[PrettyNier]

again, you're over-simplifying and ignoring important variables.

[Zadaben]

It's also minimizing seeing the same stuff over and over again, as mentioned above

Which you can only do by repeatedly killing the same monsters over and over.
Which is the same thing.
Also a good RPG should not give you much room to over or under level.

[Zero Kirby]

I may not really be into arr-pee-gees but I see the idea behind underlevelling

You don't learn the nifty neat newer skills that make later fights easier and instead have to make do with your earlier skills, sort of like playing your starter from Pokemon without evolving or learning more powerful abilities, in turn trading off power for more Power Points to attack with

Kingdom Hearts you learn pretty much all the better abilities by levelling up so not learning the best ones by underlevelling can make the game a challenge - I'm pretty sure II Final Mix+ comes with an ability that actually forces you to underlevel throughout the whole game or something silly like that

Paper Mario, you can't wear as many badges and have to get really good with guards and in the sequel, Superguards, which aren't always easy to pull off, so that could legit be a challenge

Those being the only RPGs I've experience besides a couple Final Fantasies I can't remember, though I'm sure the same prospects carry over relatively well, so I can see the idea behind underlevelling and how it can provide a legitimate "challenge" (I don't really think Pokemon and Final Fantasy would require so much thinking as luck, Kingdom Hearts and Paper Mario I could see as needing very good skill to get through underlevelled as their gameplay is focused more on player input than computer numbers), though I myself would never actually do such things

[Koh]

I may not really be into arr-pee-gees but I see the idea behind underlevelling

You don't learn the nifty neat newer skills that make later fights easier and instead have to make do with your earlier skills, sort of like playing your starter from Pokemon without evolving or learning more powerful abilities, in turn trading off power for more Power Points to attack with

Kingdom Hearts you learn pretty much all the better abilities by levelling up so not learning the best ones by underlevelling can make the game a challenge - I'm pretty sure II Final Mix+ comes with an ability that actually forces you to underlevel throughout the whole game or something silly like that

Paper Mario, you can't wear as many badges and have to get really good with guards and in the sequel, Superguards, which aren't always easy to pull off, so that could legit be a challenge

Those being the only RPGs I've experience besides a couple Final Fantasies I can't remember, though I'm sure the same prospects carry over relatively well, so I can see the idea behind underlevelling and how it can provide a legitimate "challenge" (I don't really think Pokemon and Final Fantasy would require so much thinking as luck, Kingdom Hearts and Paper Mario I could see as needing very good skill to get through underlevelled as their gameplay is focused more on player input than computer numbers), though I myself would never actually do such things

Usually, though, the spells you're missing out on are just stronger, more costly variants of previous skills. For example, Black Mages. You'll know Fire, Thunder, and Blizzard, all costing 5 MP by the regular time of reaching a boss. But if you put in the time, you'll level up enough to have access to the more costly Fira, Thundara, and Blizzara, all costing 15 MP, which do more damage, but also cost more Mp. In fact, they're setup so they're about 3x more damage, which is also their cost value. What does this mean? Instead of having to cast the Fire spell for 3 turns, because you didn't learn Fira before the fight, you can cast Fira once with the same effect, thus really cutting back on turns in the ultimate run, if the battle is going to take a lot of back and forth. This is but one of many perks of standard or overleveling. Because really, the only things you don't have access to by those points in the game when you're underleveled are the higher tiers of spells that do the same thing of what you already have, which again prolongs the battles unnecessarily.

again, you're over-simplifying and ignoring important variables.

I'm using simple examples for the sake of showing the basic effect of underleveling as I mentioned before, which is prolonging what would otherwise be a short battle, even by normal leveling standards. Another great example of this would be Garland from Final Fantasy 1. By the time you normally reach him, the battle would be over in like 3-4 turns. But then you have the people who want a "challenge" and reach him at level 1, and thus it'd take like 12 turns or so. That's just dragging the thing out.

[Ryan914]

So Disgaea- Lets go make your Item's a world that you can level up the items with.

Only reason you want to go to Item World if it's

A) A Legendary version of the weapon/Armor and the Item God has something even better.

B) High leveled specialists to get (Gladiators raise damage dealt, Sentries raise Defense, etc.) or to clear an item to make room for residents (Items with high Population limits).

or

C) High ranked item where the Bonuses given for clearing the map are a lot of money or items to sell. Especially useful if you can master Geo Symbol chaining which raises bonus rank significantly.

[Zero Kirby]

Usually, though, the spells you're missing out on are just stronger, more costly variants of previous skills. For example, Black Mages. You'll know Fire, Thunder, and Blizzard, all costing 5 MP by the regular time of reaching a boss. But if you put in the time, you'll level up enough to have access to the more costly Fira, Thundara, and Blizzara, all costing 15 MP, which do more damage, but also cost more Mp. ...

again, you're over-simplifying and ignoring important variables.

I'm using simple examples for the sake of showing the basic effect of underleveling as I mentioned before, which is prolonging what would otherwise be a short battle, even by normal leveling standards. Another great example of this would be Garland from Final Fantasy 1. By the time you normally reach him, the battle would be over in like 3-4 turns. But then you have the people who want a "challenge" and reach him at level 1, and thus it'd take like 12 turns or so. That's just dragging the thing out.

And overlevelling isn't dragging things out unnecessarily, I suppose?

And I noticed you ignored my examples that weren't Final Fantasy, good job, lad, oh wait, I didn't even have a Final Fantasy example whoops

I admitted that I thought Final Fantasy and Pokemon would require more luck so it's not entirely like I was disagreeing with you.

You also have to remember, it doesn't necessarily take three times as many turns just because you don't have the three-times spells. Your health and defenses are lower too meaning you have to manage potions and party members much more effectively. You also won't get as much money which makes obtaining and managing said resources more difficult.

You keep on going "it just makes the battles longer" which is true, you just don't seem to be understanding why

[Koh]

And overlevelling isn't dragging things out unnecessarily, I suppose?

And I noticed you ignored my examples that weren't Final Fantasy, good job, lad, oh wait, I didn't even have a Final Fantasy example whoops

I admitted that I thought Final Fantasy and Pokemon would require more luck so it's not entirely like I was disagreeing with you.

You also have to remember, it doesn't necessarily take three times as many turns just because you don't have the three-times spells. Your health and defenses are lower too meaning you have to manage potions and party members much more effectively. You also won't get as much money which makes obtaining and managing said resources more difficult.

You keep on going "it just makes the battles longer" which is true, you just don't seem to be understanding why

I ignored those examples because I've never played those games and don't have an opinion on them xD.

As for overleveling not dragging things out, yes, you do have to see the same random encounters (or the same screens if it's a real-time game like Secret of Mana) a bunch of times, BUT, it's not within the same fight, as I put in caps before. Think about how easy it is to grind for a while, put the game down, come back later, grind more and then continue, than it is to run from every battle, get to a boss fight, and have to do the same fight like 6 times until you finally win, probably by luck since the enemy didn't score a critical or whatever, or if it was by "skill" then all the resources you wasted on that single battle. And I don't mean "easy" difficulty wise here, but how it wears on your attention span.