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The Male Gaze
#43
Yeah I lied when I said I'd back out. Welp.

Anyway: I don't deny there are more social barriers for women than men, but making sweeping generalizations and setting up false dichotomies does nothing to remove these barriers (in fact in the long run it strengthens them; there's nothing more harmful to the truth than a bad argument for it, etc.). The concept of "female privilege" bugs me the same way that the concept of "affirmative action" does, in that it's completely artificial "equality" and runs completely contradictory to meritocracy (who gives a shit who are, if you're good you're good) -- also never mind I read that blog again and they're actually complaining about that, my references to that in my last post were really fucking dumb and I needed to pay more attention, sorry. And what I meant with the "male privilege" thing is that it seemed basically discussion-terminating; "if you have a different opinion you don't understand because you're not female," which is the context it seemed to be used in before.

Tachikoma Wrote:Yes, I was explaining that women are subject to a false dichotomy, why are you presenting this as if it is at all contrary to what I was saying?

I read it as you saying they're exclusively trapped in this dichotomy somehow though, and "can't win." The implication here is that apparently they can only choose between those two extremes, with no middle ground; saying the only choice in the majority of cases is between being a "slut" and being a "prude" honestly seems like a gross simplification to me.

Quote:Where did I say or even imply that I think this about men? Please show your work.

I had edited the post to clarify that the only people who would honestly make those kinds of slut/prude generalizations would be the kind of dbags I mentioned. My problem was mainly with your saying "women can't win;" just because a certain minority (at least, in my experience) of males think a certain way doesn't mean that it's suddenly an unwinnable situation for all women.

Quote:I am fully aware of this. When we're talking about the male gaze we're not often talking about real people, at least not in real circumstances. Singularly characterising women as sex objects feeds into and normalises sexist ideals. That's why it's a problem.

The only recent big movies I can think of (off the top of my head, anyway) where women have been characterized solely as sex objects were Michael Bay's Transformers movies (or any movie with Megan Fox in it). Generally, most recent movies with female leads had them do something other than be a damsel in distress or just be there to look pretty, and we've even had some pretty badass ones (e.g. Hanna, Salt, etc.). We've also had movies with objectified/super-idealized male leads as well (e.g. Twilight lol, Nicholas Sparks movie adaptations, etc.). Just because the actress looks pretty or the camera does a few "pan up from back of legs to back of head while she's walking" shots doesn't mean they're being singularly characterized as sex objects, unless that's literally all the camera does and they have almost no narrative purpose other than to fulfill the Broner Quota -- which, of course, brings us back to Michael Bay =P

As for videogames, like I said, Bayonetta is a very (extremely, even) capable female character when placed in the hands of a skilled player, as are most playable female characters in videogames. Here is a video of Chun Li showing some dudebros who's boss.

Quote:Well golly gee here I am asserting myself as a woman and being slapped down by a dudebro for reading too heavily into things. And then being told I need to do more to assure that women assert themselves. Which is, by the way, victim blaming; you're just looking for a reason to silence the Big Mean Feminazi rather than listening to my point. Where, also, is the assumption coming from that I don't look at bigger issues, too?

Okay sorry, that was a bad potshot lol. I just think that the amount of "objectification" happening in movies, videogames, etc. is exaggerated, and I honestly don't see much of a problem unless the characters affected by the "male gaze" exist solely for titillation and serve almost no other purpose within the context of the work. In the context of videogames I also dislike how people talk more about how the game's controversial or offensive to group X than the actual game (the first review of DNF I read spent almost a page talking about the game's "misogynist unfunny humor" and spent maybe 4 or 5 smaller paragraphs talking about how the game actually played), and the same applies with movies (to a lesser degree, since movies aren't going through a "maturity crisis" right now).
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Messages In This Thread
The Male Gaze - by Koopaul - 07-16-2011, 05:20 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Cshad - 07-16-2011, 05:50 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Sengir - 07-16-2011, 05:54 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Koopaul - 07-16-2011, 05:55 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Sengir - 07-16-2011, 06:01 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Koopaul - 07-16-2011, 06:04 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by PrettyNier - 07-16-2011, 06:29 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by DavidCaruso - 07-16-2011, 06:34 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by GrooveMan.exe - 07-16-2011, 06:38 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Chris2Balls [:B] - 07-16-2011, 06:50 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by GrooveMan.exe - 07-16-2011, 06:50 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Chris2Balls [:B] - 07-16-2011, 06:54 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by GrooveMan.exe - 07-16-2011, 07:01 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Chutzpar - 07-16-2011, 07:07 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by DavidCaruso - 07-16-2011, 07:08 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Chris2Balls [:B] - 07-16-2011, 07:10 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Chutzpar - 07-16-2011, 07:13 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by GrooveMan.exe - 07-16-2011, 07:16 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by PrettyNier - 07-16-2011, 07:31 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Chutzpar - 07-16-2011, 07:32 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by GrooveMan.exe - 07-16-2011, 07:33 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Chutzpar - 07-16-2011, 07:40 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by DavidCaruso - 07-16-2011, 08:23 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by GrooveMan.exe - 07-16-2011, 08:49 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Chutzpar - 07-16-2011, 09:01 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Alpha Six - 07-16-2011, 09:10 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Kriven - 07-16-2011, 09:12 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Alpha Six - 07-16-2011, 09:15 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Kriven - 07-16-2011, 09:15 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Chutzpar - 07-16-2011, 09:26 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Jalopes - 07-16-2011, 09:51 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by a babyass man - 07-16-2011, 09:45 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by triptych - 07-17-2011, 04:47 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Chutzpar - 07-16-2011, 09:54 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Jalopes - 07-16-2011, 09:58 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Alpha Six - 07-16-2011, 09:59 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Jalopes - 07-16-2011, 10:02 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Alpha Six - 07-16-2011, 10:05 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Jalopes - 07-16-2011, 10:10 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Alpha Six - 07-16-2011, 10:17 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Jalopes - 07-16-2011, 10:27 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Alpha Six - 07-16-2011, 10:30 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Jalopes - 07-16-2011, 10:36 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Alpha Six - 07-16-2011, 10:45 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Koopaul - 07-16-2011, 10:21 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Alpha Six - 07-16-2011, 10:23 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by GrooveMan.exe - 07-17-2011, 04:10 AM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Chutzpar - 07-16-2011, 10:23 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Koopaul - 07-17-2011, 03:46 AM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Alpha Six - 07-17-2011, 04:00 AM
RE: The Male Gaze - by GrooveMan.exe - 07-17-2011, 04:19 AM
RE: The Male Gaze - by DavidCaruso - 07-16-2011, 10:26 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Jalopes - 07-16-2011, 10:50 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by lord bestfriendgeny - 07-16-2011, 10:52 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by DavidCaruso - 07-16-2011, 11:21 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by tsr moderation staff - 07-16-2011, 11:30 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Alpha Six - 07-16-2011, 11:30 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by DavidCaruso - 07-17-2011, 12:36 AM
RE: The Male Gaze - by tsr moderation staff - 07-16-2011, 10:55 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Jalopes - 07-16-2011, 11:00 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by lord bestfriendgeny - 07-16-2011, 11:27 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Kriven - 07-16-2011, 11:47 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by lord bestfriendgeny - 07-16-2011, 11:57 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by tsr moderation staff - 07-17-2011, 12:46 AM
RE: The Male Gaze - by lord bestfriendgeny - 07-17-2011, 12:51 AM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Jalopes - 07-17-2011, 01:00 AM
RE: The Male Gaze - by DavidCaruso - 07-17-2011, 12:53 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by lord bestfriendgeny - 07-17-2011, 01:07 AM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Chris2Balls [:B] - 07-17-2011, 05:46 AM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Chutzpar - 07-17-2011, 06:28 AM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Chris2Balls [:B] - 07-17-2011, 06:48 AM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Sengir - 07-17-2011, 01:43 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Chutzpar - 07-17-2011, 01:50 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by StarSock64 - 07-17-2011, 02:46 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by GrooveMan.exe - 07-17-2011, 03:52 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Jalopes - 07-17-2011, 03:56 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Sengir - 07-17-2011, 04:06 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Chutzpar - 07-17-2011, 04:13 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Lemonray - 07-17-2011, 04:09 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Jalopes - 07-17-2011, 04:17 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by GrooveMan.exe - 07-17-2011, 04:21 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Jalopes - 07-17-2011, 04:23 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Alpha Six - 07-17-2011, 04:26 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Jalopes - 07-17-2011, 04:27 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Sengir - 07-17-2011, 04:25 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Jalopes - 07-17-2011, 04:26 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Chutzpar - 07-17-2011, 04:27 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Chutzpar - 07-17-2011, 04:28 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by lord bestfriendgeny - 07-17-2011, 04:28 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Jalopes - 07-17-2011, 04:31 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Sengir - 07-17-2011, 04:30 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Chutzpar - 07-17-2011, 04:31 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by GrooveMan.exe - 07-17-2011, 04:42 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Chris2Balls [:B] - 07-17-2011, 05:11 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by GrooveMan.exe - 07-17-2011, 05:12 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Kriven - 07-17-2011, 06:02 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Chutzpar - 07-17-2011, 06:11 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Kriven - 07-17-2011, 06:28 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Jalopes - 07-17-2011, 06:29 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Kriven - 07-17-2011, 06:31 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by DavidCaruso - 07-17-2011, 06:47 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by GrooveMan.exe - 07-17-2011, 06:49 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by RétroX - 07-17-2011, 06:49 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Koopaul - 07-17-2011, 07:00 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Alpha Six - 07-17-2011, 07:06 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Chutzpar - 07-17-2011, 07:07 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by lord bestfriendgeny - 07-17-2011, 07:08 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Koopaul - 07-17-2011, 07:17 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Alpha Six - 07-17-2011, 07:20 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by SKELTON S. SKELETON - 07-17-2011, 07:20 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Koopaul - 07-17-2011, 07:22 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Alpha Six - 07-17-2011, 07:22 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Chutzpar - 07-17-2011, 07:22 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Sengir - 07-17-2011, 07:23 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Koopaul - 07-17-2011, 07:24 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Alpha Six - 07-17-2011, 07:26 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Chutzpar - 07-17-2011, 07:26 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Chris2Balls [:B] - 07-17-2011, 07:30 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Koopaul - 07-17-2011, 07:34 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Chutzpar - 07-17-2011, 07:37 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by RétroX - 07-17-2011, 07:44 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Chutzpar - 07-17-2011, 07:52 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Koopaul - 07-17-2011, 08:17 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by lord bestfriendgeny - 07-17-2011, 08:20 PM
RE: The Male Gaze - by Cobalt Blue - 07-18-2011, 03:05 AM

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