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Negative-Zer0 · 12-08-2010 02:05 AM

Koseh, the point is is that the thing sort of balances itself. Look at all the problems you listed at the end of your post. That alone makes this not broken (unless Runouw decides to go with the homing idea, which i believe is stupid and defeats the purpose of CUSTOM COMBO)

Reasons that the Smash (somthing) should be activated through smash ball as well as an analasys on how it should work.

.1 Its like a super power, making it activate through a smash ball makes more sense and is much more practical.

.2 It doesn't overlap. Making a completely different item and still having the A+B input is unnecessary, what if you have both at the same time, a bunch of paradoxes that will require much more work and much more unnessary coding.

Write up and Analysis on How It Should Work.

How it should work is that you are basically able to cancel normals, specials, and grabs really quickly ( Not sure how many frames I should be however. Probable like 3-4 frames until you can cancel into another attack. The game runs at 30 FPS ). This of course will have to be done in exchange for some knockback and damage priority. This forces the player to TRULY have to know what he is doing and have SOME practice before they are able to pull off huge combos. As they get better, the combos get bigger. Of course this should not replace normal combos. BTW, gotta work on that hitstun and knockback in your demo man, people get knocked way too far, way too fast.

As long as it follows the rules in my post on the previous post, it should be balanced and not break the game. n00bs (for lack of a funnier) term will not be able to pull off combos by spamming B-air, because after like the second hit, the opponent will be too far to chain another attack, which means that no one can truly complain about it if the more difficult combos require stricter timing and specific attacks to chain together. If the game has damage scaling on attacks that are preformed to many times in a row, this will make spamming the same move practically useless. Meaning, your gonna have to mix it up a little if you wanna make a big damaging combo.

E.G. * Gooey spams down b for the entire 7 seconds gets him to about 20% at MOST*
*Samurai Goroh knocks the opponent all around mixing it up with grabs, normals, and specials and finishes with his falcon punch-like sword slash. And gets 70% damage plus a possible kill confirm. ( see page 5-6 of player pitch pit for goroh's moveset.)

This is my vision on this system. To make it balanced, have somewhat of a learning curve, so that the game can be fun for everyone. (provided you don't go up against someone with more experience than your self.

~~tsr moderation staff~~ · 12-08-2010 04:59 AM

i'm gonna keep arguing because even though you guys have all but decided on it i still think that it has issues

for one thing, kosheh is right about how this should be a totally different item. for one thing, final smashes are made to be individual supermoves. this would be more or less the same with every character. second, the argument that because its a very powerful move it must be in the smash ball is stupid. the dragoon, hammer, golden hammer, and, to a lesser extent, items like the deku nut or assist trophy. these can all do one hit kills, which is often all a smash ball can do. even if it wasn't a new item, you could incorporate a gauge system which allows you to temporarily enter the combo mode (and maybe perform a final smash once its full)

second, you will want to do more than just making attack chains easier. because smash uses directional attacks rather than the traditional 4-6 button attack system, combos won't exactly be smooth. keep in mind that in the videos, these people have this well practiced and near memorized, making it easy to do A, upA, downA whatever... in rapid succession. in a normal setting, it won't be quite the same. rapidly switching directions like that isn't exactly a natural feeling movement. i dunno, just a thought.

Negative-Zer0 · 12-08-2010 06:39 AM

(12-08-2010 04:59 AM)[fish in space] Wrote: i'm gonna keep arguing because even though you guys have all but decided on it i still think that it has issues

for one thing, kosheh is right about how this should be a totally different item. for one thing, final smashes are made to be individual supermoves. this would be more or less the same with every character. second, the argument that because its a very powerful move it must be in the smash ball is stupid. the dragoon, hammer, golden hammer, and, to a lesser extent, items like the deku nut or assist trophy. these can all do one hit kills, which is often all a smash ball can do. even if it wasn't a new item, you could incorporate a gauge system which allows you to temporarily enter the combo mode (and maybe perform a final smash once its full)

second, you will want to do more than just making attack chains easier. because smash uses directional attacks rather than the traditional 4-6 button attack system, combos won't exactly be smooth. keep in mind that in the videos, these people have this well practiced and near memorized, making it easy to do A, upA, downA whatever... in rapid succession. in a normal setting, it won't be quite the same. rapidly switching directions like that isn't exactly a natural feeling movement. i dunno, just a thought.

Why would it not be good through the smash ball. Once again, if activation happens upon picking up the item, than the combo would be damn near useless unless your REALLY lucky enough to have the opponent right next to you as it happens and be able to chain an attack. How do you suppose it should activate then, B? That would be overlapping if a smash ball appears.

But why not just NOT make the smash ball appear?

See there is a problem right here, you can't make an extra item for ever function the engine allows, because we would then have to restrict the person from part of the GAME. This is a problem because the person playing the game has no control over what items appear or not. If they want to do a normal combo into a final smash and the custom combo item appears, well woopti friggin doo, your gonna have to wait until someone uses it. When a smash ball appears, the person at least has a choice of whether or not he would like to do a Tanden smash or whatever, or a final smash.

Hence why i said making them have a choice through a smash ball would be practical and NON-RESTRICTING.

And whats up with the combo would be the same for every character? It WOULD be a different thing for every character. A differant out of the norm combo would happen every time.

Directionals being more complicated? The traditional 6 buttons is MORE complicated because the is one attack set to each button, directional, however, simply has you choosing as easier set of moves to memorize to chain together.

Within like the first 5 seconds you know your characters moves, but in 6 button fighters, it takes a LONG time to memorize all of your characters normals and use them to your advantage. Thats WAY more moves to memerize than smash.

(12-05-2010 08:20 AM)Negative-Zer0 Wrote: Can we at least see the idea in action before making the final verdict? It actually sounds interesting.

-low knock back
-hits only cancel when you attack someone
-low damage
-activation lasts a short period of time ( 6 or 7 seconds )
-actually takes some skill and practice to link together ( not too much however)

*requirements*
-get a smash ball
-press A and B at the same time for activation
-can be activated during an attack
-can't be activated during final smash
-after images to indicate activation.

This would seriously separate us from the pack. A totally unique idea that works and fits into the game ( if done correctly ) could attract more people to this game. The same can be said about how final smashes ruin the game and is out of the spirit, but it didn't.

This is a list of things that i suggested a couple of pages back. I explained most of them in greater detail in my previous post, the one outlined in bold was not.
This was meant for this to be easy to set up. This of course means that it won't be some kind of miricale involved with you landing that combo. Basically, your giving the player complete control over his actions rather than saying "take it or leave it"

Being able to cancel ANYTHING in to ANYTHING really gives the player a chance to be creative and spontaneous. Do you really think that the player will be given this chance when he has to wait for ONE item for this specific function? NO. Smash balls probably appear like 5 times a match. While it may be difficult to preform on a keyboard, in this day and age people have PC gampads laying all over the place. Specifically PS360 controllers.

Getting it through smash ball is the best possible situation due to it making more sense canonically (sort of, orb of infinite power anyone?)
and when discussing the engine of the game. Not only that, but making a new item would be unnecessary work, not to mention that we don't have the creators license to do so anyway.

Runouw · 12-08-2010 06:58 AM

(12-08-2010 06:39 AM)Negative-Zer0 Wrote: Why would it not be good through the smash bal. Once again, if activation happans upon picking up the item, than the combo would be damn near useless unless your REALLY lucky enough to have the opponent and be able to chain an attack. How do you suppose it should activate then, B? That would be overlapping if a smash ball appears.

Woah, it's starting to sound a lot different than when I first described it... I would like this form to last longer and not fail if you happen to miss or mess up in the middle of a combo.

I actually really like the Own-Zone Idea.

Negative-Zer0 · 12-08-2010 07:43 AM

(12-08-2010 06:58 AM)Runouw Wrote:
(12-08-2010 06:39 AM)Negative-Zer0 Wrote: Why would it not be good through the smash bal. Once again, if activation happans upon picking up the item, than the combo would be damn near useless unless your REALLY lucky enough to have the opponent and be able to chain an attack. How do you suppose it should activate then, B? That would be overlapping if a smash ball appears.
Woah, it's starting to sound a lot different than when I first described it... I would like this form to last longer and not fail if you happen to miss or mess up in the middle of a combo.

I actually really like the Own-Zone Idea.

Well, the form lasting long would cause some complaints. The point of this form lasting a short time is to prevent downright broken combos, and the fact that it would literally guarantee a kill instead of putting your character in a good position to kill.

Every decision can't be towards helping a new player out. What it does is already balanced enough. Besides getting one chance prevents the balance being thrown out of whack. Think about it, being able to cancel anything into anything and getting Multiple chances to kill? I want the point of this form for someone to take a risk and get a chance to be spontaneous. Not interfering with the game too much.
Considering the requirements of actually getting a combo to link, own zone is kinda unnecessary. You can't play it too safe man, it will end up holding the game back. If you want a full write-up on how the system should work, explaining every nook and cranny (I am talking days worth of work), shoot me a PM so we can discuss it in greater detail to find the best compromise.

Koopaul · (12-08-2010)

Look why don't you just have a "Combo Mode" then like "Stamina" or "Coin" matches, you can also have combo matches. Sheesh stop trying to over complicate things.

Bazzoka · 12-08-2010 08:54 AM

I shall easily agree with Koopaul. Making it a mode will be so much easier, but...

Having it part of the Smash Ball doesn't really make sense honestly. The Smash Ball helps a character draw out a "secret technique," not go into super sayian mode and pull off amazing combos (but their secret technique might be to going to into said mode with varying results).

Having it as it's own item is a problem because of the odds of it appearing right next to you at the perfect time, just as you said, Clap. But, since you're so fixated on it having to be in as part of an item or something, here's this: It's something similar to a Smash Ball, in that is bounces around the screen when it appears and takes a few hits to break open. This way, everyone will want to grab it, thus making everyone close to it when it's broken/obtained, in theory of course.

This is the only way I can think of making it's own item, not overlapping with a Smash Ball, and making it so people will flock to it on instinct if they want to win that match, much like a Smash Ball. Unoriginal? Yes. Does it solve some problems? I would think so. People will get the combo aspect and the chaotic feel of Smash Bros.

AuraPigOnStilts · 12-08-2010 09:00 AM

I dont really understand how these combos work. Is it just, any lag is taken out of moves (like the long time before falcon punch etc.) or time taken between each move is pulled off is reduced or removed or what?

**Kosheh** · 12-08-2010 12:03 PM

(12-08-2010 09:00 AM)Deleted Sarcasm Wrote: I dont really understand how these combos work. Is it just, any lag is taken out of moves (like the long time before falcon punch etc.) or time taken between each move is pulled off is reduced or removed or what?

All startup and ending lag is taken out of moves, so you can cancel moves as much as you want within the time allotment. :V

~~tsr moderation staff~~ · 12-08-2010 03:39 PM

@negative-zero- first of all, the using a smash ball or combo thing is easily fixed using the gauge idea i mentioned. if the gauge isn't full, you do a hyper combo which lasts as long as the gauge is full. if its completely full, you do a more powerful final smash. smash balls would just add a big boost to the gauge instead of instantly giving you a fs. second, if you think that combo-heavy traditional fighters are about memorizing button combinations, you clearly haven't played any all that extensively. TvC for example has a very simple system: you have 3 main attacks, light, medium, and heavy, as well as partners and special moves. you can chain a move into any move which is stronger but you can never move back. This leaves you with a simple system which is easy to use for beginners and can easily be used by newbies once they get a feel for things, but still has a lot of depth and can be mastered with a lot of practice. when you are only dealing with 2 buttons and a lot of directions, it will feel seriously awkward to combo around and near impossible to pull off a specific combo.

anyway, i agree with koopaul. just adding a fun little mode would be a lot more fun to play with and wouldn't require so much balancing and tweaking just to make it plausible.

Negative-Zer0 · 12-08-2010 03:41 PM

(12-08-2010 08:54 AM)Bazzoka Wrote: I shall easily agree with Koopaul. Making it a mode will be so much easier, but...

Having it part of the Smash Ball doesn't really make sense honestly. The Smash Ball helps a character draw out a "secret technique," not go into super sayian mode and pull off amazing combos (but their secret technique might be to going to into said mode with varying results).

Having it as it's own item is a problem because of the odds of it appearing right next to you at the perfect time, just as you said, Clap. But, since you're so fixated on it having to be in as part of an item or something, here's this: It's something similar to a Smash Ball, in that is bounces around the screen when it appears and takes a few hits to break open. This way, everyone will want to grab it, thus making everyone close to it when it's broken/obtained, in theory of course.

This is the only way I can think of making it's own item, not overlapping with a Smash Ball, and making it so people will flock to it on instinct if they want to win that match, much like a Smash Ball. Unoriginal? Yes. Does it solve some problems? I would think so. People will get the combo aspect and the chaotic feel of Smash Bros.

WHY THE FUCK JUST NOT HAVE IT APPEAR THROUGH THE SMASH BALL THAN? IT MAKES NO FUCKING SENSE NOT TOO. DID YOU READ MY PREVIOUS POST? MAKING A NEW ITEM AND STILL HAVE THE INPUT A+B MAKES NO SENSE. BECAUSE IN THE END, YOU WILL HAVE DONE UNNECESSARY WORK. (ya hear that?) UN-FUCKING-NECESSARY WORK. I'D RATHER GIVE THE PLAYER A CHOICE RATHER THAN RESTRICTING THEM FROM A PART OF THE GAME BECAUSE ONE ITEM APPEARED SO NOW THE OTHER ONE CAN'T.

Oh and Koopaul, I'm sorry but STFU. All you have proven to me is that you don't want it in because you don't like it, but you can't even give me a reason as to why we should leave it out.

If you want a demonstration of how i would like the system to work: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=990MPb8p-...re=related

There. Simple concept. Combos like this one, and not the constant teleporting of the other vids is what i wanna see.

(12-08-2010 03:39 PM)[fish in space] Wrote: @negative-zero- first of all, the using a smash ball or combo thing is easily fixed using the gauge idea i mentioned. if the gauge isn't full, you do a hyper combo which lasts as long as the gauge is full. if its completely full, you do a more powerful final smash. smash balls would just add a big boost to the gauge instead of instantly giving you a fs. second, if you think that combo-heavy traditional fighters are about memorizing button combinations, you clearly haven't played any all that extensively. TvC for example has a very simple system: you have 3 main attacks, light, medium, and heavy, as well as partners and special moves. you can chain a move into any move which is stronger but you can never move back. This leaves you with a simple system which is easy to use for beginners and can easily be used by newbies once they get a feel for things, but still has a lot of depth and can be mastered with a lot of practice. when you are only dealing with 2 buttons and a lot of directions, it will feel seriously awkward to combo around and near impossible to pull off a specific combo.

anyway, i agree with koopaul. just adding a fun little mode would be a lot more fun to play with and wouldn't require so much balancing and tweaking just to make it plausible.

But then the guage idea makes it closer to a traditional fighter than i am sure most people would want it to be.

Haven't i already stated that fighters aren't about button combinations to koopaul. Hell, i said it in the same post you were replying to.

"Memorizing 6 normals and using them to your advantage"

The combo idea should be able to work. But what i'm getting from some people is that they don't even want to give it a try and would rather be a stubborn child about. How would we know it is good if we haven't tried it yet? The point is is that this idea was meant to bring somethingnew to the table. If we just made it a seprate mode people would'nt give it a second thought and skip over it. Making it apart of the main game however, is brilliant.

Not wanting to put in the game because of balancing and tweaking is straight up lazy.

BTW, its impossible to win at a versus series game without combos. It isn't your subtle street fighter where you can win by just straight up poking and zoning the entire match, Ala Dhalsim.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Scf_dkkq_Y

These games aren't all about button combinations, which I never stated, but it is about different playstyles. Keep away, lockdown, runaway, rushdown.

In order to make use of your character your obviously going to have to have knowledge of the assist and combo system. This is what i believe the versus series is about. But enough of that lets get back into discussing the engine.

~~tsr moderation staff~~ · (12-08-2010)

you are being just as stubborn as people arguing against it, if not more. we are coming up with legitimate complaints with the idea and alternatives to make it work better and you are brushing them off without a second thought because of how you want it.

honestly, we should probably just set up a few polls about whether to use it and the nature of the idea, especially considering there have only been like 5 people involved in this argument and this is meant to be a community project.

Negative-Zer0 · 12-08-2010 04:25 PM

(12-08-2010 04:13 PM)[fish in space] Wrote: you are being just as stubborn as people arguing against it, if not more. we are coming up with legitimate complaints with the idea and alternatives to make it work better and you are brushing them off without a second thought because of how you want it.

honestly, we should probably just set up a few polls about whether to use it and the nature of the idea, especially considering there have only been like 5 people involved in this argument and this is meant to be a community project.

Unlike those people however, i have come up with an actual facts and ideas to not make it interfere with game too much. With every idea, i explained why it should not be implemented.

The seperate item thing- That causes so many problems its not even funny.

The gauge thing- 90% of the arguments against it was it to not be close to a traditional fighter, this would put it close as fuck.

Lastly- people are seriously trying to pass up a great idea because they don't like the feeling of it. Which is bullshit. In order to design this game, we gotta learns to think outside of the box and not in the "OWN ZONE"

Hell i tried to explain it to make it seem as though it doesn't make it interfere with the game too much, so people can't complain about how the spirit of smash is ruined.

And yet they are still unwilling to at least try it. Now, was i truly being stubborn?

Koopaul · (12-08-2010)

The best option is to have a separate mode to prevent less controversy. This is a very polarizing thing you must understand.

Having it tacked on to the Smash Ball is foolish.

Negative-Zer0 · 12-08-2010 04:45 PM

(12-08-2010 04:43 PM)Koopaul Wrote: The best option is to have a separate mode to prevent less controversy. This is a very polarizing thing you must understand.

Having it tacked on to the Smash Ball is foolish.

I have one simple question for you.

Why?